Practical Discipleship
What does it mean to be a disciple of Jesus? A disciple's mission is to live a Christ-centered life, reflecting God in all we say and do - evangelizing, teaching, and sharing the gospel so others may know. Austen and Cheyenne share the wisdom of the Bible and discuss how to walk with Christ on a daily basis.
Practical Discipleship
Ep 38: Chosen Or Choosing: Predestination Q&A
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Wrestling with predestination can feel like standing in a storm—Scripture thunders about God’s sovereign choice while our hearts ache over human responsibility, fairness, and the people we love. We step straight into Romans 8–9 and trace Paul’s argument from foreknowledge to glorification, then ask the questions most of us whisper: If God elects, why evangelize? If grace is irresistible, why do some walk away? And where does prayer fit when we fear for our friends and family?
Together with our guest Dustin, we map the classic viewpoints—Arminian, Calvinist, and Molinist—without strawmen. We examine tough texts like “Jacob I loved, Esau I hated,” John 3:16’s “world,” Titus 2:11’s “all,” and the parable of the soils. We compare Judas and Peter to explore responsibility and restoration, and we talk honestly about deconstruction, grief, and the “Christian pain” Paul names in Romans 9–10. Along the way, we tackle practical mission questions: Jonah’s calling, why God uses ordinary people as His chosen means, and how to preach a sincere invitation when only God gives new birth.
This conversation doesn’t tidy up mystery; it honors it. We end where Romans 11 ends—on our knees before the wisdom and mercy of God—while holding fast to two anchors: the gospel must be proclaimed to everyone, and God delights to answer the prayers of His people. If you’re navigating the tension between God’s sovereignty and human choice, you’ll find clarity, comfort, and courage for real-life ministry. If something challenged you or gave you hope, share this episode with a friend, subscribe for more deep dives, and leave a review to join the conversation.
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Welcome back to another episode of Practical Discipleship. I'm Austin.
SPEAKER_02:And I'm Cheyenne, and here we discover what it means to follow God by engaging with Scripture and igniting our faith.
SPEAKER_06:So others may know. Let's do it. Alright, guys, the time has finally come to do this episode on predestination and election. You guys have sent in some awesome questions. It's definitely going to help us keep the conversation going. But before we do that, I want to do a quick little overview of Romans chapter eight, because the majority of this episode is going to be about Romans chapter nine. But chapter eight is kind of paints the picture of going into chapter nine and about God's sovereign choice. I'll sum this up quick because I want to mostly get into your guys' questions and we'll take it from there. But starting off in Romans chapter eight, Paul's talking about how God has done what the law weakened by the flesh could not do. And what he's talking about is that God Himself has come down in human flesh to restore what was destroyed from the very beginning. Verse 4, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. Then Paul goes on into explaining there's this contrast between the spirit and the flesh. The spirit is life, the flesh is death, and he goes on to say how the spirit of God actually dwells within you. And then from here, you guys will kind of start to see how this debate is starting to form. In verse 15 of chapter 8, it says, For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received the spirit of adoption as sons by whom we cry Abba Father. So if we are receiving this adoption as sons, then that means prior to that that we were not we were not sons who cried out Abba Father, and we have been grafted into this family. However, verse 29 is very clear about that how God does the calling and that he has predestined. So verse 29, it says, For those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers, and those whom he predestined, he also called, and those whom he called, he also justified, and those whom he justified, he also glorified. So it's clear that God is the one who calls, God is the one who justifies, God is the one who glorifies and predestines, God is the one who predestines the adoptions as sons, whom cry Abba Father, which brings us into chapter nine of God's sovereign choice. So we see these words of you know being predestined and the foreknowledge of God that God calls. So chapter eight is basically saying that we have there's there's a contrast between the spirit and the flesh. Spirit is life, flesh is death, and the spirit of God lives in us, but those who were called or predestined have the ability to receive the spirit of adoption as sons, whom cry out Abba Father, right? And those who who he has predestined, he's called, those whom he called, he justified, and those whom he justified, he also glorified. Which brings us into chapter nine of God's sovereign choice and understanding these terms and and talking about them of like what this actually means. So you I mean you guys wrote in some awesome questions. So we're literally just gonna start from the top, work our way down, and yeah, we'll just we'll just work it like that. All right, so like we promised, we've got Dustin on here to help out with this because I was pretty nervous about doing this one by myself. I didn't want to tackle this by myself. It's also just important to do theology together as a team to kind of keep you online, make sure that you're not going down, believing something whack. So so a lot of you uh some of the questions were pretty long-winded, and I kind of shortened them up and put them in my own words a little bit, but we're just gonna start from the top and work our way down. And anyone can chime in. This isn't just for Dustin, but because I want other people's opinion on this. So, first and foremost, what is the difference between predestination and election? The Bible uses these words, we can't just skip over it. We need to have an answer for it. So, what is the difference between predestination and election?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, basically the same thing. Uh, the the uh the two words will refer to different aspects of the same truth, but it kind of winds you up in the same place. So election is God's choice about what is what is going to happen, right? And then predestination is just referring to the future aspect of that. This is what will happen. So election choice, predestination, control of the future. But it it ends up sort of describing the same phenomenon.
SPEAKER_06:Okay. And then in a broad sense, what are the different views on predestination and why is there so much debate about it?
SPEAKER_00:All right. So um let's let's get ridiculously reductionistic here. So this is like way too simple to um account for all the variables, but generally what you've got is you've got a side that uh says that God leaves uh a significant amount up to the free will of man as to whether man is going to be saved or not. Okay. So they'll they'll lean very much on the free will side of things as far as like um, you know, you have to freely choose, you have to leverage your free will to accept the salvation offer from God. That position is more represented by um the camp that we would call Arminians, comes from Jacobus Arminius in the 1600s, who articulated it this way. He said, God looks down the corridor of time and he uh he foresees, foreknows who is going to choose him, and then preemptively works things so that that choice will be possible for them to make. So it's a foreknowledge view where God sees ahead of time, but really the deciding factor in somebody coming to Christ is that their free will to decide to come to Christ. Then there's the other side where um it's very much focused on this election thing. God makes some decisions about who he's going to pluck out of death, right? And so that's represented more by the Calvinist camp, named after John Calvin, also the 1500s, who um was actually the history here matters. John Calvin was reacting against the Roman Catholic religious structure. And he was saying, guys, you can't just give wine and crackers to people and tell them they're saved. There's there's an element here of relationship with God, and you're you're skipping over all of that stuff and just telling them they have forgiveness of sins because they took the mass. You can't do that. Here's how salvation works. And so he went to Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 and these other passages and said, you know, if God has to welcome you into his family. You don't just get to show up and eat the meal, right? So that was Calvin's point. He was reacting to Rome. Arminius was actually a disciple of John Calvin, and then he was preparing for a debate. And during the debate prep switched sides of the argument, and he said, You know what? I think I actually disagree with Calvin on this. I think so. That's where Arminianism came from, was he said, No, I think we're not giving enough credence to the the um the freedom that God has left in man as being in the image of God. And so that's where the debate came from in the 1500s. Uh Arminius actually popped up a little bit after, um, or he became significant, I think, after Calvin's death. And so they weren't arguing with each other, but the two camps represented by these guys would argue. So you've got Arminians who focus on free will, you've got Calvinists who focus on election, and then kind of, I guess you could say in the middle there, but I don't want to present it as a middle choice that makes sense of both, because it really is a third way of thinking about it. You've got the Molinists. So Molina was a Jesuit, uh, a Catholic, a Jesuit priest in the 1500s. Um, I think I might have said 1600s with Calvin and 16th century, 1500s, whatever. This is all popping off in the 1500s. So Molina was a priest then, and he said, well, maybe the way that it worked was like this, where God looked at all of the possible worlds he could have created, which is presumably an infinite buffet, right? He looked at all the possible worlds he could have created, and he created the one with the conditions such that the most people possible would freely choose him. So God is sovereign and man is free. And that was kind of Molina's uh, you know, solution to this whole thing. And so the people that follow that soteriology these days are called Molinists. And so those are kind of the three camps. Now, the reason there's so much disagreement is because there are real implications to this, you know, if um if like on one hand, you'll you'll hear the Calvinists get asked the question all the time, well, if God is predestined, who's gonna be saved, why bother evangelizing? And then they'll they'll pop back to the Arminians and say, well, if it's all up to the freedom of man, then why would you ever pray for anybody to get saved? Right. And so they both sides call each other hypocrites in their practice, right? Um, but in the end, it it matters because we want to know God, right? We want to know who he is and how he goes about doing what he does. This stuff matters to us. I mean, this is this is our spiritual biography, and so we can hold company with people who disagree with us on this, and we do. Like it, it's they are such complex issues because there's so many different Bible verses that that shed various lights on it that almost nobody's gonna agree a hundred percent about every aspect of this. So we're all gonna hold fellowship with people we disagree with on this. That being said, the mechanics of salvation matter. We're the gospel people. We want to know how the gospel works and and what we ought to be doing in response.
SPEAKER_02:So I've always had more of the Arminian view. And then doing this study, I came to recognize more of Calvin's view of it, being sure of election. And besides like the passages in Romans 9 or what you said Ephesians 1 and everything, I've wrestled with how is Calvin getting to his conclusion so much and dismissing other verses, like God desires that no man should perish, you know, he doesn't take pleasure in the death of the wicked out of Ezekiel, you know, those types of passages. I keep reading those and thinking, how can Calvin uh get to his conclusion and like dismiss those passages?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, if you read Calvin on this and and Calvin's followers, you know, uh Beza and so on, uh, they actually dealt with those very thoroughly. And so not everybody deals with uh not everybody agrees with the way that they dealt with those passages, but basically the formulation is like this. Um we they would they would start by saying, and I'm summarizing here, they would start by saying the um vocabulary is an imperfect tool for communicating these things, right? So that being said, we have to specify what we mean by each word in each context. So when you say God loves somebody, well, there's a sense in which God loves his entire creation, but then there's another sense in which he loves his children. And that's very true to human experience. I love you guys, but I love you in a very different way than I love my children, right? Right. And that's not a bad thing, it's a good thing. And so um, you know, when when is when we talk about what God's will is, what God wants, they would break it up into things like God's permissive will, like he's allowing these things to happen according to his will. He's not directly causing them, but you see this in like judgment, for example. God will take his hand back, that's Romans 1. He will take his hand back from people, turn them over to their sin. Well, that's according to God's will. The the uh judgment would stand. And yet, all things being equal, he would rather they obeyed him and didn't do that. So his will is being violated and his will is being worked at the same time. So they're gonna look at all this and say, does God want everyone to be saved? Yeah, God desires that no one should perish, but that all should come to repentance. That's his overall plan. How's he gonna work that out? He's gonna work that out in such a way that his will according to election might stand, you know, Romans 9. And so it's it's like, you know, um, well, actually, a good way of explaining it is what the the early theologians, the patristics, the early church fathers would say. They would say that uh God is simple. They have this doctrine called the simplicity of God, meaning that he is everything he is all the time. So God's not like us, where sometimes he's in this mode and sometimes he's in that mode, and you know, whatever. He's always just and holy, and there's always wrath, but he's always loving and he's always forgiving and always merciful. So the text at any given time can really only be drawing on one element of what God is. And so if you see two verses that seem to conflict about what God wants or something like that, they would say, No, it's all true. It's just that this text is explaining that portion of it. That doesn't negate the other portion. So, does God have pleasure in the death of the wicked, right? I remember when um when bin Laden died, there was kind of a debate within Christianity. Because as Americans, we were like, sweet! You know, like dude, dude got dude got a head full of lead. That's exactly what we want, right? And um, you know, then as Christians, it's like, well, that's a soul burning in hell. We maybe we shouldn't be celebrating that. And you can find biblical warrant for both of those, you know, and so we got a big God. And that was kind of Calvin's point. So yeah, they actually dealt um very thoroughly with the verses that would seem to push back on their theology, which doesn't mean that they were right about everything they said. It just means they were all really, really careful.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_06:I think the the biggest thing that I struggle with, if if Calvin is right on this, and I agree with you, Shine, I I think I unknowingly grew up believing uh Arminianism. And I think it's just because it sounds good to the ear. And it's like, oh yeah, you know, God gives you free will, it's all you know, you come come to faith in Christ. But then when you start reading Romans chapter nine, and it's like, man, how how do I fit Arminianism into this? Because it's like God says, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, I will have compassion on whom I have compassion, and it's clear that God is the one who's doing the calling. And so my struggle with if Calvin is right, this is kind of just I guess my own question. I I don't know if it's necessarily in the list here, but would that mean that people that God calls don't have like the capacity or understanding or even the will to reject it? Whoever God calls, he will predestined, and that's like you know what I mean? Almost so I guess I I guess a better way is that there's no such thing as free will in a sense.
SPEAKER_00:I see. Okay. Yeah, so I want to back up and reframe this in a way that's not normal for people to think about because we're we're trying to track through the thoughts of God, and so he's got a bit of a different starting point than than we normally do. So if in fact, this is a really helpful way of explaining the difference between Calvinists and Arminians, for example, where the they're they're trying to answer different questions, you know, and where the the Arminian will come and say, Well, how could anybody possibly reject this good news? If they reject it, it's because they must not understand it. We need to explain it to them so that they can we need to persuade them, right? Right. So they'll say, How can anybody possibly reject it? The Calvinists will come along and say, How could anybody possibly accept this? We're dead, you know? And so those are very different starting points. So God's starting point in in the book of Romans through the Apostle Paul is all are lost, period. So chapter one, all men are without excuse. Chapter two, if you think you've got an excuse, oh, oh man, just check if you've ever violated your conscience. Because if so, your in your internal sin meter is pinging and you know you're guilty before God. Chapter three, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And on and on he goes, right? So the whole point of Romans is everybody is lost and our only hope is Christ. That's it. So if you start with with people being completely lost all the time, then you get around to, well, how can anybody possibly be saved out of that? Right? I mean, if you're dead, like this is Ephesians 2, dead people don't make decisions. So what you know, what do you do? And the answer is God has to give you life because he's the source of all life. So is there free will? Well, there that's a question to ask. The first question is, how is it possible for a dead person to come to life? And is that an act of the will or not? And I think in the Bible, you've got all kinds of evidence that no, going from death to life is not an act of the will. Being born, not an act of the will. We didn't decide to be born or who to be born to or when or whatever. So there's um there's a lot of you said something that Arminianism kind of sounds good to the ear, it kind of makes sense. I think there's another reason that that we kind of assume Arminian theology generally. I think it's because that's our experience, right? Like I remember making a decision to follow Jesus. You guys have a testimony. You remember making that decision. So that's our experience. I I decided something freely and joyfully, right? What the Bible's gonna tell us then is that yes, that decision happened, and that was very real. You weren't some robot that was pre-programmed, like, I love you, Lord, and I lift my voice, right? It's not like because if you tell a computer to love you, it's not much of a compliment, right? It's like, oh, thanks, buddy. What are you gonna do, hug it? So we we do remember making that decision freely and joyfully. The Bible's telling us here in Romans 9, there was a lot that went into that decision that we weren't aware of. So God did a lot of things that led up to us being able to love him and choose him. And that's where the whole issue of election comes in. So it doesn't do away with the free decision we made. Instead, it enables God's God's election to give us life, it enables us to freely love him. So Augustine explained it this way. He said, this is in the 400s. Um, he said that uh that sinners have a will, but it's not really free, right? It's it's held captive by sin. Our will was damaged in the fall, basically. And which is a really good question. Like, by what logic do I think that we came out of the fall with our will being completely intact, right? Obviously, if everything was damaged, so were our desires. And that's Augustine's point. So sinners have a will, but it's not totally free. All of our choices before we're saved are within the spectrum of sin. And I can freely choose which way I'm gonna sin, but whatever's not of faith is sin, right? Romans 14, 1 Corinthians 8, Hebrews. Right. Yeah, anyway. So all of our choices are within the realm of sin. Then once we're saved, our spectrum opens up and we've got double the choices. Now we can freely choose to sin, or we can freely choose to please God. So his point was only Christians have free will. And I think that's a really helpful way of explaining it, because a non-believer can't choose to please God.
unknown:Right?
SPEAKER_00:Right. Romans 14 is clear about that. So do we have and Hebrews, right?
SPEAKER_06:So I mean it says without faith it's impossible to please.
SPEAKER_00:Hebrews 11, 6, exactly. So, you know, do we have free will? I would say we have a will, but it's not as free as we sometimes assume.
SPEAKER_06:Okay. This next question actually leads in almost perfect to it. So it says, I think it's clear that scripture or sorry, I think it's clear in scripture that God does the calling. So would that mean that God creates people just to reject them?
SPEAKER_00:Again, I think that's uh the wrong starting point. So if if we change the starting point to um, you know, that that paints a picture of God, which is like, okay, I'm gonna make this person just to burn in hell, I'm gonna make this person just to burn in hell. When you talk to when you talk about Romans 9, he says, um, like verse 19, you will say then, why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will that which is molded say to its molder, Why have you made me like this? Has the potter no right over the clay to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another one for dishonorable use? So there he says, Yes, God has made some people specifically to be objects of wrath. That's hard for us. We don't like that, right? But he explains it further. What if God desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power? Sorry, I'm in verse 22. What if God desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy which he has prepared beforehand for glory? So what he's saying there is if we take as a starting point, all of creation has fallen away from God. There is nothing here that is fit for heaven, period. Then you've got the situation where God is patiently enduring that and even continuing to do that creation work so that his mercy might be made more pronounced and more glorious. So now instead of a God who makes things just to sadistically throw it away, you've got a God who continues in a creation that he's not pleased with just for the sake of showing kindness to us who believe. Because he gets more glory out of our salvation than um it's like his glory is more amplified by our salvation than it is damaged by sinners. And so it actually shows the patience of God. You know, we see it as kind of cruel, but if you look at all of creation as fallen and God has to put up with this stuff, it's kind of amazing that he does.
SPEAKER_06:So what would you say to somebody with that being said, it was like, okay, well, God knows the future, obviously. He knows He knows everything. And if he's creating someone that he knows that is going to walk down this sinful lifestyle and they're not called to be predestined or for the elect or anything. Does that make sense? I missed the question.
SPEAKER_00:I think your question is like, how is that fair?
SPEAKER_06:Not not well, I guess I guess I'm just trying to make more clear of this question of like why would God create someone just to reject them? Because he already knows what they're gonna do, right? Yeah. Or even if you're not not even just Calvin, but the other views, whether if you have free will or not, God already knows that they're gonna whether they're gonna choose them or not. So I think what the question is asking is like, why would God even bother creating them if he knows that they're gonna be in hell?
SPEAKER_00:Does that make sense? And yeah, and the the answer is the same reason that God does everything, it's for his own glory. We don't sometimes understand as people what is most glorifying to God. And if like, what if the glory that he gets out of one salvation is so eternally overwhelming that it makes everything else worth it? Like we don't get to see that because we don't have a heavenly perspective. Yeah, but that does seem to be God's motivation for this stuff. And the the question is a good one because it's not just it's often a question that gets posed to the predestinarians, to the more Calvinist side of things. Like, well, why would God make somebody that he knows is going to burn in hell? Honestly, this is just a Christian question. This is not a question for Calvinists because you put your finger on it, Austin, that um, you know, even if somebody is 100% dedicated to the the idea of free will salvation, you still have a God who could choose somebody and is choose or who could save somebody and is choosing not to. Right. Right. If my kids end up burning in hell and God's like, well, yeah, but I'm a gentleman and I didn't want to violate their choice, I'd be like, violate their choice. I don't care. That was actually a big turning point for me because I was raised Arminian also, and I found myself one time praying for my kids and I said, God, I don't care if they have a choice, just save them. And when I said that out loud to God, I almost like I stopped and I was like, Did I just say that? And I thought maybe there is good news in the election, because if we all are fallen and running towards hell and he intervenes, then I can't look at him and say no fair just because he intervened for me and my kids and not for somebody else. He deserves thanks. Now I can ask the questions, but every Christian ought to be asking these questions, right? Because again, even if it is all about free will, God is deciding not to save somebody that he could save. Every Christian has to wrestle with this.
SPEAKER_06:Every view would have to answer that. Totally.
SPEAKER_00:I don't think the Calvinists wear this one. I think every believer does.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and so here's a good illustration of it. I told you this story on the phone one time that um I went to India. We went to this uh village just out in the middle of nowhere. Like we tried to stop. I tried to get my driver to pull over and stop. We were kind of on this ridge on top of this mountain in the jungle. And uh I was like, hey, can we pull over? And we're bouncing through the roads. I'm all car sick and everything. And you know, there was kind of a road because enough people had traveled it, but it was pretty rough, right? I'm like, hey, can we pull over and I can, you know, hit the bathroom or something? And he goes, No, we're not pulling over. And I said, Why? And he points down one side of the ridge and he goes, That side, tigers, that side, cannibals. We drive. And I'm like, You got it. Like, I like that idea. So, I mean, when I say we were in the middle of nowhere, nowhere, right? So we go out to this village and uh we we start sharing Christ with them. And they had no idea who this was. They thought we were looking for somebody in some village, and they were like, I that guy might know him, he knows everybody. And we're like, no, Jesus, like Jesus Christ. We're like, got nothing, dude. So we share the gospel with them, a bunch of people come to Christ. Great. Then we find out that um they were in their tribal grieving process, their mourning process, because one of their elders had passed away. Like the day before, the week before, whatever it was. And so as we're leaving there, I'm thinking, like, why didn't God send us here last week? You know, because that guy just died with no familiarity with Christ at all. And if I believe that God is in charge of missionaries, he he decides when to send who, where, it's up to us to obey, but he's he's he sends, right? He's the sending God. He could have sent people here all the time. It wasn't that hard for me to get there, and he just decided not to. And so I just sat back and I'm like, what do you do with that? You know, God put me there a week after somebody died and went to hell, and I just had to come to the conclusion he is under no obligation to save anybody, like he just doesn't have to, and I have no claim on him. And it hurts. I don't I don't like thinking in these terms, but we're dealing with a real God here who does not conform to our preferences.
SPEAKER_06:Right. All right, next question. I guess this is kind of we've already talked about this, but the people that God calls, do they have the choice to reject it or even the ability to? My question comes from when Jesus picks the 12 disciples, yet one of them is Judas who betrays him.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, so the answer is no. I don't then look, honestly, this is my opinion. You you asked, you get five Christians in a room, you're gonna get seven different opinions on this. So this this is me reasoning through it. I don't I don't think they had the ability to reject him because um so much prophecy was fulfilled in the meantime. Like God had already announced what was gonna happen, and these guys got it done. So I don't think that if one of them made a different decision, God would be like, ah, come on, man. We were almost there, like one week from the cross. Because, you know, John 17, Jesus is praying and he's like, I lost none of the of those that you had given me except the son of perdition, Judas, so that the scriptures might be fulfilled. Right. So even that was a fulfillment of prophecy, right?
SPEAKER_06:Um so would the Calvinists look at that as Judas being like, Yeah, this is God clearly picking and choosing certain people, and the Arminius would be like, Well, yeah, see, that was his free choice.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. And and I think the the Calvinist take on it would more precisely be that um God had a plan and he used people in order to accomplish his plan. Some of them he called to life, and others he turned over to their sin. And you're seeing in real time what's happening here. So you have like you take, for example, Peter and Judas. Both of them denied Christ, right? And what happened? One of them was restored and one of them wasn't. You can talk all day long about their free will and and you know being the difference between them, but the text just doesn't say it. Instead, what you see is Satan came into Judas, right, and he betrayed Christ, and then he went out and killed himself. Well, I mean, that's essentially what happened at the cross, right? Like it was the suicide of Satan. And so that was laid uh lived out in the life of Judas. All of this stuff was very carefully planned and executed by Christ. So to say it was based on human free will, I think just doesn't account for all the facts. Now I will say this, and this is what makes my Calvinist buddies mad. Um, which I was telling Darren earlier, I uh I feel like on this issue, I I piss off everybody involved at some point. So I feel like I'm probably right. But um the the uh the understanding that we have of election has to include the fact that we are responsible for rejecting God. And I don't know exactly how to make that fit, but when you take into account like Matthew 23, for example, where Jesus goes to Jerusalem and he he laments over Jerusalem and he says, Oh, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, she who has killed the prophets, I would have gathered, gathered you together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you would not come. And what he's saying is, I wanted this, but you did that instead. You rejected, right? And so they were responsible for that. He says, now, because of this, all this is gonna happen. And so their rejection of Christ had very real consequences. And then Acts chapter seven, um, Stephen is on trial and he tells the religious leaders, he says, You stiff-necked and uncircumcised of heart, you always resist the Holy Spirit. So Calvinist theology has this doctrine called irresistible grace, where when God calls you and shows you his grace, it's so overwhelming that you don't have the ability to resist. I think I see some resistance in the text. And so I think we have to include that somehow. And, you know, it it doesn't override the doctrine of election, because that's so clear, but we have to have a way of articulating it that says, yeah, when people reject him, they are responsible for that very real decision that they made. How you fit those two things together? Good luck.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, right. It sounds like such a contradiction.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, because I I was wrestling with the idea that if God has the ability to reject people or in a sense, not call them, he also has the ability to, in a sense, call everybody.
SPEAKER_04:Yep.
SPEAKER_02:And so the verse that I go to with that is in uh first John or sorry, John chapter one, when it talks about how he came down, he was in the world, the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. So I read that as he came to his own, his own people did not receive him, meaning that he called, he gave that invitation to all of his people, but they rejected it. But to all who did receive him, meaning everyone else who he was calling received him, he gave them the right to be to become children of God. So I read that in an understanding that when Jesus came down, he was calling everybody. And so that's where I kind of try to fit my Arminian view, is like he's wanting the call for everybody. And again, those verses that I mentioned earlier, because he does not desire that any man should perish. And because it's hard for me, and I know I know you touched on it a minute ago, of just like we can't question the sovereignty of God. Who are we to say how or question how God works?
SPEAKER_00:Because God is God and He Well, we can't put him on trial, but we're definitely allowed to ask how.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I I'm just I'm rest it's hard for me to grasp that perception of God to think that this is how He operates with not wanting to call everybody.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And and again, when you get into the word call, it's like there's different ways of using that, right? So if you're called, that could mean called to life out of the grave, in which case there's only one way that ends. You obey the call of God. Lazarus come forth. Lazarus wasn't like, I'll check my schedule, right? He he did what God said. On the other hand, it says many are called, few are chosen. So there's different ways of using this word. But John chapter one, for example, so he comes to his own, he he puts that invitation out there. Many people reject him. Those that Don't, those that receive him, they can become children of God. The question then is, how do you go about receiving God? Is that an act of the human will or is it an act of divine will? And if you read verse 13, it'll answer that for you. So John's answer is Yeah, so so John really doesn't really leave us anywhere to hide, right? It's like, no, God, like if you're a believer, there's a lot that went into that. And part of it was that God made some decisions and he deserves your thanks for it.
SPEAKER_02:And I'm very, I'm very grateful that I feel called by God and I have a relationship with him, but I can't help but grieve people who I know in my life who I pray over constantly, like, please, I want you to know the love of God. I have close family members that I prayed for on a daily basis. And then so hearing this in a new light, thinking that maybe they're not actually chosen by God, it breaks my heart to think I'm gonna be in heaven one day without them. Not that I need them to sustain that, because all I need is the Lord, but breaks my heart to think, hey, I I could be in heaven one day and I won't know or care if they're there or not.
SPEAKER_00:So I'm I'm not gonna say anything that's gonna take the sting of that away, but what I'll say is that is exactly the biblical way of thinking about it. Because that pain is Christian pain. That's part of the Christian burden. And so Paul says this in Romans 9 and 10. So the beginning of Romans 9, he's talking about his Jewish brothers and sisters. He says, I'm speaking the truth in Christ, I'm not lying. My conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen, according to the flesh. They're the Israelites, and to them belong the adoption and the glory and the covenant. So he's just going on, like, if I could sacrifice my own salvation for them, I'd do it. Chapter 10. Brothers, uh, this is verse one. Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God is for them that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but it's not according to knowledge, right? And so you all I can say is you feel just like Paul. And that's right where you should be.
SPEAKER_06:This next question is pretty much what you asked. And uh, as I go down the list, any of these questions that you know that we've already kind of talked about, we we can just kind of skip over or just sum it up real quick. But question five is if God has already chosen his elect, how are we supposed to interpret John 3 16? God so loved the world, gave his only son. So and correct me if I'm wrong, but Calvin believed in what's called limited atonement, which is where basically Christ- That term didn't come along until after him, but yeah. Oh, okay. Um basically that Christ died on the cross only for his elect. So, yeah, their question is like how are we supposed to interpret John 3.16 if Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, John 3.16, I think, actually doesn't say anything about the question of election at all. Um most people will will put emphasis on the whosoever, right? So that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life. Um, you've put emphasis, the the person asking the question has put the emphasis on on the word world. And it's true that in the in the Gospel of John, the word world does refer to the lost world, right? It's like you are not of the world, I chose you out of the world. He says this in the farewell discourse. So when he says world in the gospel of John, he's talking about lost humanity. And so, in a sense, as I said before, God loves the lost, right? And and which makes sense. Why would he send us after them to pursue them and call them if he doesn't love them? Of course he does. But then there's a different love that he has for those that are adopted into his family. It's a father-child love, right? So um, does God love the world? Absolutely. Does God love the world in every sense? No, he loves the world as a pursuer, but not as a father until people are adopted into his family. Um, so then whosoever believes in him will inherit eternal life. But that says nothing about who it is that's going to believe or how they come to believe. That's just a whole separate issue. It just says that whoever does believe gets eternal life. In other words, you're saved by believing God, right? You how do you get eternal life? Through faith. How does that faith come about? It's not addressed in John 3.16. It's addressed in John 1 and in John 6, you know, 6.44, I think it is, where no one comes to the Father unless the Father himself draws him. So John will address it other places, but 3.16 isn't it's not mentioned.
SPEAKER_06:So do you hold to uh limited atonement?
SPEAKER_00:Or uh this is a very unpopular view that I have again. Um so for you guys and for everybody listening, this is just Dustin's weird theology here.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:I do not care. I I have tried and tried to find a reason that this doctrine matters. Um and all I've come up with is that the limited atonement thing matters if you're debating a Catholic. Because again, back to Calvin's point, you can't just throw juice and crackers at people and tell them they're saved. The salvation of God applies only to a group of people. It is those with faith, or as Calvin would call them, the elect, right? As far as like between Protestants, nobody's expecting communion to save people, right? And so it's like I don't I don't really know what we're fighting about. Did Jesus die only for the elect, or did he die for the whole world and then only the elect will be saved? Well, in the end, limited atonement will have been true. New heaven and new earth, when all is said and done, only those with faith will have been saved, only the elect will be saved. So it's like this whole debate has an expiration date to me when Jesus comes back.
SPEAKER_06:I I mean I can see where people struggle with it, because I mean, if I'm being honest, the more I look into it, sometimes I start believing or thinking that it's like, man, do I even really understand the gospel? With like this whole predestination thing and the elect. And actually, one of the questions here kind of uh it's question nine, it says, I'm struggling with believing a wait, no, sorry, which one is it? Um well, yeah, I guess I guess question nine can go with it. I'm struggling with believing a God who could create someone knowing that they would suffer in hell because God didn't choose them, how is that good news? How is that gospel good news?
SPEAKER_00:Let me go back to a different starting point here. Okay. So if what is ultimate for us is that people should not suffer, then it would be very bad news that God lets anybody go to hell. That would undo the gospel. But if that that's only if what is ultimate is that people don't suffer. What if what is ultimate is that God is glorified? Right? And people suffer because, and we can get into this more if you want to, people suffer because they choose to reject God, because they choose to reject the source of all good. And so we're what you're left with is a total lack of good. It's a total godlessness, which is hell, right? So if if God's ultimate purpose in everything is his own glory, then it makes sense because he will be glorified as savior and he will be glorified as judge. And so both of these things serve the glory of God, right? And if you are a rebel against God, if you go to war with God, you're gonna lose. And he gets glorified by winning the war. So, you know, is it good news that people go and burn in hell? No, I don't take any pleasure in the death of the wicked any more than God does. I mean, you mentioned what, Ezekiel 18, I think it is. Oh, okay, yeah, there you go. And um so yeah, does God take pleasure in the death of the wicked? No. Is he glorified by it? Yeah. And if God being glorified by his creation is the essence of the gospel, that that you know, his creation will again serve its purpose by glorifying him, even though right now it's fallen away from that, then yeah, it ends up serving the gospel. And it's a tough pill to swallow. It doesn't mean it's all happy clappy news. Yeah, it just means that God did what he said he was gonna do.
SPEAKER_02:So I have a I have a question. So if people have so I've known people in my life who grew up in a youth group, seemed like they were on fire for the Lord, seemed like they were called by God because they just lived their life in service and reverence to the Lord, and then all of a sudden they don't believe in the Lord anymore. So, like, were they ever actually part of the elect if you were gonna be able to because to me it's like, oh well, did they actually ever really know God? I can't imagine someone who didn't truly know the Lord living that way, reading their Bible every day, praying, leading worship in a youth group. Like that seems like a really hard act to put on. I know some people do it, but it just seemed like growing up in a Christian family, going to church all the time, being influential in the youth group, and then all of a sudden something traumatic happens in life, they lose a loved one, and then they walk away from the Lord. It's like, okay, well, were they ever part of the elect, or is this just a season that they're going through and then they're gonna come back? It's uh kind of the idea of like, can you lose your salvation? And then I guess if you're trying to ask that question in the Calvinistic views, like, can you reject your election?
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Yeah, well, yeah, and I don't know all the right theological terminology according to every camp for that. But if if you take a look at a couple of scriptures, they you know, they they bring me um a little bit of clarity, which brings me a little bit of comfort in because we've all got a million of these stories. I've told this the story on my show that you know, I I was led to Christ by a pedophile. He's now in prison for raping the girls in the youth group that we were in when he led me to Christ, right? And it's like, what do you do with that? Because the gospel was obviously powerful, even on the lips of a pedophile, you know, I'm saved. So, like, how do you how do you and that's one of those moments, Austin, like you were just saying, like, do I even really understand the gospel? And as Christians, we go back to that all the time. Like, whoa, I've missed something here, you know. So, in regards to those that fall away, when they were clearly on fire for Christ and serving and bearing fruit and all of this, there's there's two passages that come to mind for me. One is the parable of the soils, right? The seed gets scattered on different types of soil, and there's one type of soil where the roots go down quickly, but not deep. And then as soon as the sun comes out and the pressures of life and the temptations of the world and so on, it scorches it and it burns up and it dies. So it looked like there were quick signs of life, but it wasn't the kind of life that is eternal. It was a temporary one or a it was a visible but short-lived faith that they had. It wasn't saving faith. They were trusting Jesus maybe for something else than he was actually promising. I don't know what the deal is with each one. So that's one. And the only reason that brings me comfort is not because it changes the outcome, but because Jesus told me this was going to happen, right? And that's a real comfort to me because every time I confront difficult things, it's like, okay, I knew what I was signing up for. You know, he he called it. And if if I can find a situation that Jesus didn't warn me about, I might have a legitimate gripe. But every, you know, but I haven't found it yet. Um then the other one is first John 2, 19. And I think the context here is really important because this is written by John, who was in the room when the Judas thing happened, right? He when Judas betrayed Jesus. And he says this uh they went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out that it might become plain that they were not all of us. And I think that explains that situation really well. You know, I mean, there's Judas who participated in Luke 10 and Matthew 10. He went out and cast out demons, raise a dead, tread on scorpions, he worked miracles in the name of Jesus. Right? But John's like, he wasn't one of us. It's a tough one, man.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that is hard.
SPEAKER_00:But you know, you said something else, Cheyenne, that I think is so important that um this might just be a phase they're going through. And I don't want to discount the patience of God, right? Because it might look like somebody's saved, but they're not. It also might look like somebody has turned away and rejected Christ, but they actually haven't. I can't see their heart, right? It's I got cause for concern by what I'm looking at, but how often do you see them come back years later? Right. And God was faithful. So I never want to make a final judgment on somebody and say you're saved or you're lost or whatever. I can just tell people I have cause for concern or I have no cause for concern with you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I mean, it's been a while and they grew up in church. Uh, they were friends with one of my older siblings, and I remember going out to eat one day, and I referenced some tattoos that they had on their arms. Like, what were those verses? And they, oh yeah, this is something I used to believe in. And that took me by surprise. Wait, what do you mean you used to believe in? Hold on, let's back up here. And then they kind of started explaining, you know, I don't know what God is worth worshiping if they're gonna allow X, Y, and Z to happen, losing loved ones that they were very close to, very um, in close proximity with each other. And I can and I can appreciate that for them, you know, going through that grief and questioning God, you know, it comes back to the question, you know, why did good things happen to or bad things happen to good people, you know, those types of things.
SPEAKER_00:But legit questions.
SPEAKER_02:It's just hard for me to wrestle with the idea of like I would like to believe that if I ever lost someone close to me, God forbid that happened anytime soon, that I could still cling on to the hope that I know that I have in the Lord, and that I wouldn't stray away because I know the sovereignty of God, I know the faithfulness of God, and I want to still believe in that, regardless of what trials I go through. And so it makes me wrestle with, okay, well, this person seemed like they had it pretty solid. Yeah. And how can those things, you know, affect your faith so much?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and the answer to that is, and it's not a one size fits all, but it ends up being something like, you know, Psalm, what is that, Psalm 119, nine, I think it is. I I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you. And so when we when we read our Bibles and we internalize this stuff, we feed our faith, that becomes the well that we draw on in times of trouble, right? It's like you're you're forming your worldview. Well, Job is a great example of this because Job never turned away from God, even though he had the worst day in recorded history, right? Until Jesus showed up and died on the cross. But um, and and he got pretty close. He said some pretty spicy things to God. But in the end, God said, Look, here's who I am, here's who you are, deal with it. Any questions? And Job was like, No, I believe. Well, where did that belief come from? He fed himself on the belief of God before the crisis hit. And so I know a lot of other people do as well, and so it surprises us when they turn away. But the antidote for you and for me, this isn't to cast any judgment on what they did before the crisis hit, but the answer to for you and for me is before the crisis hits, we need to be preparing for the crisis. We need to be, you know, um, knowing God always better so that we've got a deep well to draw on when we need it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, God doesn't always do the Jonah thing and swallow you up for well and let you think about it for three days. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, now that you mentioned Jonah, that's another good, another good story to pinpoint.
SPEAKER_06:So it's actually a question we have on here, too.
SPEAKER_02:Jonah was called by God, directed to go to Nineveh. He was rejecting that, and God almost, in a sense, forced Jonah to go to Nineveh. Where was Jonah's choice in any of that?
SPEAKER_00:It's a fair question.
SPEAKER_02:Swallowed you in a hole, storm hit, thrown off the boat, all these types of things. It's almost like he used Jonah as a robot to go to Nineveh, in a sense. Well, because Jonah was making his choice of I don't want to go.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think I think maybe a better analogy there would be um uh a father disciplining a child. You know, when I got a two-year-old, he's gonna do what I tell him to do. It might take some doing, but it's gonna get done. Yeah. Right. So yeah, I don't think Jonah was a robot in any sense. I think a robot wouldn't have run the other direction in the first place. But you know, but yeah, God's sovereign. Now that's not a salvation issue because Jonah was already a faithful believer of God. He was just being disobedient and a whiny little punk towards the end. But um, yeah, but God that's that's actually the whole point of the book of Jonah is God's sovereignty. I want Nineveh saved. Go. No, fish, eat Jonah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, well, here, let me pause right here. So if God wanted Nineveh saved and he does the election, what was why did Jonah have to go? If he could have just revealed himself to Nineveh, what's the like you mentioned the you mentioned this question in your open in the opening. What's the point of even going out and evangelizing if God's gonna choose who he wants to choose and reveal himself to who he wants to reveal? What's the point of being a missionary or going and evangelizing?
SPEAKER_00:I'm gonna give you my personal answer that I've arrived at, having, you know, being a missionary and having this question on my mind for years, I've arrived at a certain conclusion. So my answer is not the necessarily the Bible's answer. So take it for what it's worth, okay? Um if God chooses who to save, why do we go and evangelize, do the do all the mission work, et cetera? And in my experience, I think the answer is because in doing that, we get to participate in what God is doing and we get to see things the way he sees it, feel the way he feels about acceptance and rejection and all of these things, about when people believe, when they don't, we get to sacrifice. Um, and I I really get this from uh Colossians 1, 27, or might be 29, I think it's 127, where Paul says, we are filling up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ. Now that was a weird statement to make, and I used to wonder, like, what is he talking about there, right? Because Jesus said on the cross in John 19, 30, it is finished. So what's lacking in the sufferings of Christ? And when I studied that out, what I saw was Christ's suffering was sufficient for salvation, 100%, period. But our suffering is now necessary to accomplish the Great Commission. Not salvation, but the great commission. And so Jesus, you know, he he ascended and he left that for us to do. So that's that's what was so I think when we get called to evangelize and and do mission work and all that, we're we're being called to be like Christ, and then we get to participate in the salvation of others. So I think it's actually a privilege rather than a um a necessity on God's end. I think he made it a necessity on our end in order to be like Christ. Because that's what Jesus, I mean, Jesus was the ultimate missionary, right? He yeah, he didn't just go to a former land, he went from heaven to earth, right?
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah. And if if our if our job in life is to follow Christ, how are we gonna do that if we just sit back and let, you know, um, let things just sort of play out? That's not how he went about things.
SPEAKER_02:Well, how do you how do you present the gospel with this viewpoint of obviously I know it wouldn't be presented this way, but you go to a group of non-believers and say, Hey, Jesus came, die for you know, you give the Bible overview, you give the invitation of salvation. But why give the invitation if why not just say, well, some of you might want to accept the Lord, but it might not work because you might not be part of the elect. You know, it's just I don't I don't know how to present the gospel. Because what if someone wants to do, wants to receive, but they're not part of the elect? But then it's like, well, I I don't know if God would reveal himself to them and then yet reject them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so think think about the the gospel as um as a magnet for the elect. You hold a magnet up, plastic's not gonna rise to it, but the metal's gonna jump off of the table, right? And that's just kind of, you know, for whatever reason, and people object to this on logical grounds all the time, they just say that doesn't make any sense. And my answer is tough. Like God didn't ask. It it it he has created things in such a way that the way that you find the elect is by presenting the gospel, and then you see who responds. So I can stand in front of a group of people and say, if you repent of your sin and put your faith in Christ, he will save you. And that's true for every single person in that room. I have no idea who's gonna respond and who's not, but when somebody does, I mean, cool. I I don't need to know what God's been doing from eternity past in order to do my job there. And in that sense, the Calvinist and the Arminian are gonna have exactly the same message at a tent revival. If you repent of your sin and turn to Christ, you will be saved. Let's go. Who's in? Spurgeon said uh he said it in a typically Spurgeonian way. He said, um, you know, he was like, God didn't tell me who the elect are um by by telling me that, oh, they have a yellow stripe painted down their back. If he told me I could find the elect by looking for yellow stripes, I'd stop preaching and I'd start lifting shirt tails. Right. But he said the way you find the elect is by preaching.
SPEAKER_06:So the ones who respond to the gospel, you'll know that you'll the elect because you have the desire to Well, you see signs of life, right?
SPEAKER_00:And so Ephesians 2 is this this whole thing, which by the way, maybe I should just bring this up. Um the the question comes up a lot about like would would God force us to believe? Because if if a relationship with him is like a marriage, then you wouldn't want to force somebody to love you and marry you, right? Um and I I I'm just I'm kind of adding my own question here to the It's actually the marriage one's actually in here.
SPEAKER_06:Is that on there?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, wait, what does it say before I go too far down this road?
SPEAKER_06:Does God predestine people for marriage? If not, why do we have the choice to choose each other but not him?
SPEAKER_00:Okay, excellent. Maybe that's why that popped into my head, is because I read this yesterday when you sent it. Um so yeah, if you look at the book of Ephesians, it uses the marriage analogy between Jesus and the church. That's the gathering of people. But between God and an individual, it doesn't use the marriage analogy. It uses a death and life analogy, right? So when so Jesus in the church is like a husband and a wife, like we got that. But that's different than the mechanics of what happens in order to save an individual human soul. For that, we go to Ephesians 2. You were dead in your trespasses in which you once walked, in the sins of your former way. You were a child of the devil. There was no life in you. Like, period, you know? And then, you know, verse 4, but God being rich in mercy because of the great love with which he loved us, he raised us up and seated us together with Christ in the heavenly places. So anyway, the the analogy of election or the the truth of election starts to make a lot more sense when we stop thinking about deciding who we're gonna love or who we're gonna marry. It it starts making sense when you start thinking about like, well, if I'm dead, how do I come to life? And somebody acting on your behalf is is the only way for that to happen, right? To be resuscitated or resurrected in our case. Now, in the um, in the question there, does God predestine our spouses or who we're gonna marry? Yep. Okay, this is a really great example because I'm sorry, can you just read the wording of it one more time so I get it right?
SPEAKER_06:Does God predestine people for marriage? If not, why do we have the choice to choose each other but not him for being God?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so totally totally different type of relationship. You're talking about a father-son relationship or you know, father-daughter or whatever, versus a husband-wife. And so does God does God predestine who you're gonna marry? I don't know. Like on one hand, no, because you have to make some decisions, and who you marry is gonna be the second most important decision you ever make, right? And these are decisions with very real consequences. On the other hand, you're gonna get to the end of your life with, you know, you and Cheyenne, you guys are gonna be old someday, and you're gonna look back and you're gonna say, God was in charge of every step of this, and he had us get married so that he would accomplish this and this and this and this with these kids, right? At this time and all that. So you're gonna see you guys working in freedom and God's will being done down to the detail, and it's all gonna be true. How do you fit those things together? I don't know.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, there's a great song. It's uh it's a different set of lyrics written to the tune of Be Thou My Vision. And it says um called God of Creation. We sing it at church sometimes. It says, Nations and empires, your purpose fulfill, moving in freedom yet working your will. There it is.
SPEAKER_06:All right, we gotta kind of go rapid fire with some of these questions. I want to try and hit all these. Um if God has already chosen those who will be the elect before creation, does that not mean that God will be held responsible for evil that happens in the world? Which Paul answers that one. Everyone has sinned, you're the one that's at fault because you've sinned. Um, and God doesn't tempt anyone with sin. It's not God who's like forcing you to sin.
SPEAKER_00:It's the Babylonians, right? Like the Babylonians were evil, they were disobedient to God, they were pagans, and yet they were a tool in God's hand in order to bring judgment and discipline on Israel. So is God responsible for the sin? Well, he didn't create it, but it ended up serving his purpose. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Here's a tough one. Man, you guys wrote in some good questions here. Do you think babies who die go to hell since they can't be called? And I think what they mean by not being called is like they don't have the capability of like responding to the gospel. And if they're if this is kind of like a bash on like the Calvinist view, I I I think it's basically like, oh yeah, if God has predestined certain people to go to heaven and hell.
SPEAKER_02:Did he predestine all children? What's the age cutoff?
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, I guess, yeah. Yeah. As long as we're as long as we're talking about a hard time looking at my son and be like, oh yeah, maybe he's not part of the elect. You know, that's like I can't even imagine that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Because Jesus talks about children so highly, you know, may it be that a rope be cast around your neck and thrown into the ocean, then you hurt one of these.
SPEAKER_00:Well, what is that? Matthew 19, the kingdom of God belongs to these babies.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right? These little ones. So yeah. So as long as we're talking about, you know, unpopular opinions from Dustin. Um I think that's throwing out this there's not a lot of information in the Bible about what happens with the eternal life of babies. There is some. Second Samuel uh 12, I believe it is, verses 22 and 23. Uh, David's baby dies, and he says, He he can't come to me. I'm gonna go to him. So David fully expects to see his baby in the resurrection, or as he would call it in Psalm 23, the land of the living. Okay. So you got that. Um, and David being a prophet at times, he definitely wrote a lot of prophetic, you know, literature in the Psalms. Yeah. I'm taking him at his word. Also, this one has got me in trouble, but if I'm reading this wrong, you guys can rebuke me on it. I I don't know another way to take this, though. Romans 7, uh verse 9. So Paul's talking about the law and sin and all of this, and he says, um uh verse 9. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. So I would if the I think the logical extension of that is if a baby has broken no law, internal or external, then in other words, it's a pre-conscience baby, then there's no sin by which they would suffer for eternity in hell. And so I actually take a death of a baby, and I I don't I don't say this lightly, actually, just yesterday we recorded uh uh an episode on miscarriage with a couple in our church, and we got into this a little deeper. Um, and Emily and I have been through this twice ourselves, right? So we've had to think about like there's real flesh and blood on this, but uh for the sake of summary, I think that if a baby dies, that's actually proof of God's election, right? Because everything I have in the Bible, which is not much, but if I'm piecing it together, it seems to say that God takes the little children to himself, right? And so if he has taken the life away from this, if he's taken this earthly life away before they could engage in the sin and rebellion against him, then that's a decision that he made by which they were saved. Yeah, so I I think I think a miscarriage hard to explain to somebody though that's lost their child. Yeah, I don't say that in the first week. Yeah, you know, but um, but that it ends up being really comforting for me, you know. So yeah, I I honestly think that it that when babies die, it's proof of God's election of that person.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. Question 11. Uh what would be the point of sharing the gospel if well, we've already answered that.
SPEAKER_00:God said so, do it. Yep.
SPEAKER_06:Question 12. What's wrong with believing that God has chosen everyone and the sacrifice of Jesus did on the cross as an open door for everyone to receive through faith in Christ? I feel like this is clear in scripture. Am I wrong for believing that? I didn't realize there was a different opinion about it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, good question. I and I I do not mean this to sound sarcastic. I just don't know what scriptures would lead you to that conclusion.
SPEAKER_02:Like God, that Jesus died for all?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, Jesus died for He that He chose everybody, and then, you know, from that point on, anybody now I have heard this. I've heard um something called corporate election, which I fooled around with for a little while when I was wrestling with all of this back in the day. Um, corporate election is that God chose Israel, and then you have to freely choose whether you're inside or outside of that group, meaning spiritual Israel, including the church, things like that. So God chooses this group of people, and then you decide if you're in or out. But that whole thing about like God just chose to save all of humanity.
SPEAKER_06:I don't um well, I don't know if it's necessarily talking about like like universalism. Uh I'm wondering if it's the same person who wrote in the whole John 3.16 one, God so loved the world, that whoever believes in him.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_06:Uh, so I think their question is more on the Arminian side. They're basically saying, Am I wrong for believing that? If I'm understanding this question.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, okay. So I'll I'll say it this way that when I was um when I was re-evaluating my soteriology here, um, I looked through the Bible. So I know we're running out of time, but I'll I'll hurry up with this story. Um, Calvinist was kind of a dirty word when I grew up, right? It was that we just made fun of them. We never really explored the the theology, we just mocked it, um, which is always helpful. Um, but one time I was reading Ephesians 1 for no other reason than I was just reading the Bible, and I'm reading Ephesians 1 and I was like, ah, there's a Calvinist in my Bible, get it out, right? And I'm like, how did that get in there? And so I'm like, okay, these subjects are in there. What do we do with them? So I'm studying all this out, right? And I decide, okay, I see all of these passages for election and predestination and all of that. Let's go and find all the passages for free will. So I do this word study on free will. There was nothing, right? So, okay, let's put it on a T chart. Verses for election, John 1.13, all of Romans 9, all of you know, the first half of Ephesians 1, 2 Thessalonians 2.13, you know, whatever. You got this whole list, and then it's like, all right, now let's jump over to the free will side. What verses talk about this? And it's crickets. And I'm like, man, the only place in the New Testament the word free will shows up, if I remember right, is in Philemon. And it's got nothing to do with salvation, right? He's saying, hey, Philemon, I want you to obey me out of your own free will, not out of compulsion. And then in the Old Testament, it's the free will offerings, but that's only for people who are already God's people. So there's never a time when free will is connected to salvation, except in John 1 13, where he's saying that's not how it works.
SPEAKER_06:So, what about those people who are talking, maybe not free will, like the actual word, but believing? So, like Romans 1, 16 through 17. For I'm not ashamed of the gospel, for is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek, for in it the righteousness of God revealed from faith for faith. So maybe that's where their question is like, you know, oh, yeah, I'm seeing it says everyone. Yeah. And it's like whoever believes. So I look at that as free will.
SPEAKER_00:But again, it says nothing about who's going to believe. So that that's one of those things where it's like, yes. We do have to believe. What goes into that being possible? I see what you're saying. There's a big backstory behind your belief. Right? So Second Thessalonians 2 13, since I brought it up, but we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit and in belief in the truth. I mean what like it's right there, you know?
SPEAKER_06:All right, question twelve. Oh, sorry, actually, that's the one we just did. 14 is actually more of a statement. It says Romans 9.6 Romans 9.16 is clear that salvation is not based on human free will, but on God who has mercy. So that's just more of a statement. Question 15. How are we supposed to understand when God says, Jacob I love, but Esau I hated from Romans 9 12? Would God actually hate someone that he created?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so that's a quote from Malachi. Hit it.
SPEAKER_02:And correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I have understood it is when he says, Jacob I loved, talking about the descendants of Jacob being the people of Israel, Esau I hated the descendants of Esau being the Edomites, those are the ones that he was going to cast judgment on. That's how I've understood that verse. What's your take on it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly. That's so it's a quote from Malachi 1, which is a prophet, and he he's saying that, you know, I will show this covenant favor to one line over another. And so the word for love, I mean, what does love actually mean, right? Love means to count somebody else's best interest above your own, right? Which is why Jesus says, No greater love has anyone than that a man lay down his life for his friends. That's the ultimate show of self-sacrifice. So he has loved Jacob. He has considered Jacob's well-being above his own. He died for him, right? Esau, he has hated, just in the opposite of love. So he has decided not to place Esau's best interest above Jacob's. So, I mean, you know, we we hear love and hate and we think butterflies or flames or whatever. Like, but it's this isn't an emotional statement. It's a statement that God has chosen to bless and elevate one even at the expense of the other.
SPEAKER_05:Okay. I gotta switch over to this. I got questions on this other side. Sorry. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_02:While you're looking for more questions, I have another verse that I wanted to bring to attention because talking about how or wrestling with the idea that we don't necessarily have a choice or like dismissing the idea of free will. Um, why does Paul reference so much of like telling people repent, do this, or even in Deuteronomy 19, I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curse. Therefore, choose life that you and your offspring may live. So presenting, hey, you guys have a choice to partake in this, but if God has his elect, do we really even have a choice?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so if that makes sense. Absolutely. I think that goes back to the same thing of people have to be told to follow Christ. Now, what goes into that decision? That's the discussion about predestination and election. But I I'll use that verse all the time, you know, even in in sermons, because you know, John MacArthur said it well, somebody has to evangelize the church, right? Because there's a lot of unbelievers sitting out there thinking they're believers or or not, you know. Um, but yeah, I'll look, I'll look straight at somebody and say, man, I just set life and death in front of you, choose life. Now I don't have any control over that decision.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:But actually, God does, you know, but I want them to make that decision. So do we have a I'll go back to the statement that I made. Do we have free will? We have a will, but it's not totally free, right? That being said, we're responsible for our decisions. And so, yes, God must enable it, but people have to obey. Fit it all together. Good luck.
SPEAKER_02:I was just gonna say, can you reiterate?
SPEAKER_00:But no, no, but the the way that people, the the way that people would choose life is in response to the call to do so, you know. And I'm asking that God would work to save these people. That's why I'm praying for people Saturday night before the sermon and Sunday morning and all that stuff, is so that God would reach out and save them. And then the next thing I do, I don't stop with praying, I pray, and then I go and I call them to salvation. And you see what happens, you see what God does.
SPEAKER_01:You know, yeah.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_06:Does God pick people for specific roles in life to do his will slash come into relationship with him? And they put some examples here. Example, King Saul uh picked to be the first king of Israel. God knew Israel would want a king like the other nations, first Samuel, Judas to betray Jesus, Paul, or Saul slash Paul, you know, becoming Paul to be a disciple even after persecuting Christians. Uh so I think their question is more just wrapped around trying to understand, I guess, uh predestination. Yeah. So this whole conversation is basically what we talked about.
SPEAKER_00:So Romans 9, back to Romans 9, if we're in verse 17, for the scripture says to Pharaoh, for this very purpose I have raised you up that I might show my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. So yeah, Pharaoh had a job and he was he was assigned to be turned over to his sin. That was the reason that God created him and raised him up, um, so that God's justice would be seen. For Christians, I think that's what that's what we have spiritual gifts for. It's because God has actually, no, the perfect verse for this is uh Ephesians 2 10. You are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works that God has planned out beforehand. So Christians are predestined for good works also. You know, we're we're predestined to have a certain job.
SPEAKER_06:And then God will save some remnant. Uh is this why the SDAs believe that they are the remnant church? Probably come from chapter 11 here.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Dude, every cult says they're the remnant.
SPEAKER_02:Mormons.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Well, actually, I've uh I've heard another question. Who was it that uh like your pastor in Tennessee or something gave a good one where there's argument whether these chapters are talking about specifically Israel or Gentiles, like Gentile inclusion. Absolutely. What's your take on that?
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah. He said, um this is one of my former pastors from Tennessee, and I asked him just for his input because he's very much like you, very into the uh theology, loves talking history, you know, just I don't know. So he said, one of my favorite questions with chapters nine through 11 has to do with who exactly is Israel? Many in the West say it's the nation, but Paul seems to say that it's the true Jew, is the one in covenant with Jesus, not right, not relegated to those born in the genetic line.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So short version here, chapter 11, Romans chapter 11 gets into this in detail. So it'll say it'll it'll say that there's an olive tree, and this olive tree is Israel, ethnic Israel, the the bloodline, the people group. Okay. And then that tree has branches. Those are individual Israelites or Jews. And then those branches will be cut off if they don't believe in the Messiah. And then you've got these other trees, these other wild olive trees out there, those are the Gentiles. And if they believe in the Messiah of Israel, they will be grafted into this olive tree. So is so Israel is the people group created for God. And we're, and the basis of it is ethnic Israel. But Gentiles can be included by faith, right? And natural Israelites can be cut off for lack of faith. So it ends up all being about Jesus, right? What do you do with the Messiah? But um, yeah, there's a thing called replacement theology where people say the church has replaced Israel. Uh, I don't think Romans 11 leaves us any space for that. I would, I would call it like embracement theology, where Israel still exists and has now embraced Gentiles who have faith in God, and we inherit the promises given to ethnic Israel. So I don't think he's cast away ethnic Israel. In fact, Romans 11 flat out says, has God forsaken his people whom he foreknew? By no means, right? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, we're Gentile believers are included in the spiritual promises to Israel through faith. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Another question I have based off of this verse in Titus if God has an elect and with is salvation, has God made salvation available to everybody if he only has an elect? Because it says, for the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people. But if he only has an elect, is it really for all people? Or what he said, bringing salvation for my elect.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, my understanding of that is that salvation is for all people in Christ, in the grace of God. So salvation has appeared. How? Well, Jesus showed up, right? He he resurrected, he like the incarnation and the resurrection, Jesus showed up. And salvation is for all people in him, but only in him.
SPEAKER_02:I see. Okay.
SPEAKER_06:It's the same argument that you'd make with someone who believes in that like everyone will be saved, where in what chapter is it?
SPEAKER_00:Uh are you talking about chapter 11 where he says that at the second coming?
SPEAKER_06:It's in Romans basically when um people who believe that everyone will be saved, they say like every time that Paul says all or everyone, but it's clearly those who have faith in Christ. But your point that you're making is everyone that Paul's talking about is all those who are in Christ. Yeah, exactly. It's the same point that we would make, but he's making this same point about everyone who does believe. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so there's an old saying, all means all, and that's all all means, right?
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Not really. You know, when when Paul says, you know, I've I've uh uh the gospel has gone out into all the world, well, it hadn't made it to the Pacific Northwest yet, right? He was just saying, like he was making a statement of um of it was hyperbole essentially.
SPEAKER_06:Oh yeah. Oh, okay. It's in uh chapter five, verse twelve, talking about the death in Adam and life in Christ. Yeah, all have died in Adam, but all are made alive in Christ. And the argument for someone who believes that everyone will be saved is that well, if Adam brought in death for everyone, how come Christ can't bring in life for everyone?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and that's logically that's a great question. And the answer is keep reading, dude. Yeah. Like it's you know, by the time you get to chapter six and then you get to chapter nine, like, yeah, it's obvious that not all are saved. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:All right, we'll let this one be the last question, unless you guys have anything else to add.
SPEAKER_00:I think we've covered absolutely everything as it comes to Roman.
SPEAKER_06:There's there's there's a couple questions left on here, but they're all pretty much saying the same thing. This one says, I guess my biggest fear, what what is the purpose of predestination? Why not give all a chance? So I think it kind of goes along with the whole like, is it really fair?
SPEAKER_00:Why not give all a chance? Okay. My answer to that is gonna be ridiculously unsatisfying, but it has the advantage of being a direct quote from scripture. So um let me just find it here real quick. So Romans 11. Then let me let me set the context. Romans 1 through 11 is the most magnificent explanation of the gospel that has ever been penned, right? Like the just laying out how this whole salvation thing works.
SPEAKER_06:You said Romans chapter 1?
SPEAKER_00:11.
SPEAKER_06:Oh, 11.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So this is right at the end of this discussion. So Paul's conclusion is this um 22, I'm I'm taking a couple of excerpts here. Note then the kindness and the severity of God. Severity toward those who have fallen, but kindness to you, provided you continue in kindness. Otherwise, you two will be cut off. So, you know, what's the point? Like, why not throw it open to everybody? I mean, God is who he is, and yes, there's the kindness of God, and we experience that as Christians. There's also the severity of God, and this is a very real thing, and he's decided to administer it this way. So, why has he decided to administer it this way? Verse 33. Oh, the depths of the riches of the wisdom and the knowledge of God, how unsearchable are his judgments, and how inscrutable are his ways. For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has become his counselor, or who has given a gift to him that it might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. So the answer it kind of ends up being because that's what God decided would be best, and he just knows a lot of stuff we don't know. It's a tough one, right?
SPEAKER_02:It's very hard, and it makes me the the more I am introduced to the Calvinistic view, if that being what Paul's meaning through which you've made a lot of good points to support those views, is uh I just I I feel so unworthy. Like, why am I part of the elect and not this person? You know, it's just like I want to come at it with such humility, but at the same time, it makes me have a a full, like a fresh new grasp of the gospel of just a thankfulness and a gratitude that I can't bear. Because I'm like, wow, God, why did you save me? Why did you choose me?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and I think it's really important to to bring out an element that's not often discussed, which is that even in the middle of God's sovereignty, he still answers prayer, right? Like you take a look at Moses in Exodus 32, 33, well, especially 33, and he's like, God, like, would you save these people? And God's like, nah, dude, I'm gonna wipe them out. That golden calf thing back in 32, I'm done with them. And Moses interceded, and God did what Moses asked. And so we have a sovereign God who can actually act on our prayers. And so it there should be as much as it's important to discuss the the details of election and get into all of this nerdy stuff, it's so important. Like we have to do this because we want to know God. It's also important to realize when we beg for mercy for people, God listens. You know, and and you and I, we're fine. Like God has adopted us, we're going nowhere, like we're fine. So we can spend all of our energy now begging for mercy for other people and saying, God, send me over there. Like I'm I'm doing fine. That person doesn't believe yet. What do I have that I need to sacrifice in order for that person to be saved? I don't care what your plan is, I'm good with it. You obviously know better than I do. I've read Romans 11. Let's just go. You know, and you've got a God who's powerful enough to follow through and good enough to save people. So it this should translate into putting a lot of energy into begging for sovereign mercy for other people.
SPEAKER_05:I like that.
SPEAKER_06:All right. Well, Dustin, thank you for coming on this episode and really helping us out with this. And also thanks to you guys for writing all these awesome questions, keeping the conversation flowing and everything. Quick shout out to the podcast network, hfw.network. Go and check out other shows on there. There's five other shows on there. We also have, you know, there's one in Spanish and also Chinese. But all right, till next time.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks for listening to another episode of Practical Discipleship. Follow, subscribe, and make sure you tune in next week.